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engine siezed?

20K views 40 replies 7 participants last post by  Mr Waverunner 
#1 ·
hey, i took the waverunner out last weekend, it was running pretty good. shut it off a couple times and fired right back up. well about 30 minutes after running, i let go of the throttle and it slowely idled down and died, and when i tried to start it, it would not turn over, it would just click. battery is fine, tested it and charged it. I have taken the plugs out(the first plug was corroded pretty bad) the rest seemed ok. and with the plugs out, i tried turning the dirveshaft by hand with a wrench on the impeller, but i couldnt budge it either way. am i supposed to be able to turn it by this? i have not checked the starter relay or selenoid, but ive doen some reasearch, and tried to turn the engine over by hand wich i cannot do with shaft. Could my engine be siezed up? or could it be in the gears? is there a better way to check if it is siezed? i jsut baught it and do not want to spend more $ at the shop getting it fixed. any help is appreciated.
 
#6 ·
When you took out the sparkplugs did they look like they were dry and whiteish gray color or look like aluminum particles on them?
 
#9 ·
Don't waste your time with the pump



Ok, that is a lean burn on that plug. Chances are that piston is stuck to the cylinder wall. That is the reason for the aluminum shavings from the piston.
You may as well start tearing it down and hope you can hone the jug and just replace a piston.
 
#10 · (Edited)
what would cause that? oil pump failure? after when i took it out, there would be some oil in the bottom of the hull, could never really locat where it was coming from. also, that is the only piston that is up towards the top that i can see. idk if it is stuck there or not. that goes back to my question of should i be able to turn the drive shaft with the plugs out by hand?
 
#11 ·
Ernest knows more about Yamahas then me, but start by looking at the oil lines to see if one slipped off. How full is the tank? Holding at wide open throttle can also burn it down if the fuel system is gummed up and causes a lean mix.
 
#12 ·
oil tank is 3/4 full, lines are all intact and look pretty new. sicne ive had it, ive never ran it at full throttle, ive onyl had it to about 43mph. it seemed to run great, just idled down and died and the engine seems froze. and that spark plug has some greyish build up on it. the guy before me said he uses 93 octane(or the best the pump has) bvut i put gas in it i used 87 unleaded. could the change in fuel have caused this? it doesnt seem likely but i dunno. i mean it ran fine until i fueled it up
 
#13 · (Edited)
It is strange that the lower octane fuel would cause this. The only thing I know is that the lower the octane the hotter the burn. The gas rather explodes instead of burning evenly. Thats why they run race fuel in Pro Stock Snowmobiles to keep the exhaust temps down. If I remember correctly aluminum melts a 1300 degrees. So 50 - 100 degrees cooler makes a big difference if you are running on the edge.
 
#14 ·
yea im not sure thats what caused it, but just a thought. its going in the shop tuesday morn, to have a mechanic look at it for $80/hr. and if its soemtin simple maybe ill try to fix it myself. weird that one spark plug looks the way it does..makes me wonder if the oil pump or gas line or someting isnt working right. there was no warning light or anything when it died either
 
#16 · (Edited)
took it to the nearest motorsports shop tuesday for them to "look" at it. they have had it all week, ive caleld everyday and they said they r looking at it?. so i called them this morning and asked whats going on, and they said "one of your sparkplugs had piston material on it, and that piston is siezed up, you will most liekly need a whole new rebuilt engine put in because if one is damaged then they are all damaged." i was like well how much is that? he said $3500. thats more than what it is worth!!! is this figure even close to what i should be paying? and would i really need a whole new engine if one piston siezed up? seriosly thats more than i paid for it! im definatly not paying 3500 dollars. **** i could put a whole new engine in my truck for that.
 
#17 ·
I thought it was seized



When you saw the aluminum frags on your plug I knew it was seized. However I do disagree that all your pistons are bad. I have had triple cylinder two stoke snowmobiles where only the center jug was stuck and replaced just that piston. It all depends on the compression after you fix the bad piston.
 
#18 · (Edited)
yea i dont know, 3500 dollars seems like a lot for a engine replaement. i paid less than 3000 for the waverunner. the guy who owned it before me didnt know where the choke was at, and had to use starter fluid to start it, he would spray starter fluid down the carburator opening holes ontop of the carb cover. im guessing this could be the main problem? but you would think all the pistons would be bad, not just have 1 sieze up. wht else could make 1 piston sieze up? the place i took it to didnt tell me anythign about it, and didnt even look at it, all they did was take the plugs out and tell me the engine was siezed and charged me 40$. afer they have had it all week. called a different dealer and can get a new engine isntalled for 2300$ with a 1 yr warrenty. but i dont know if i need a whole new engine? couldnt i just replace some parts? Anyone know if the yamaha GP 1200's are powervalve or not?
 
#19 ·
took it to a different mechanic a little further away, got a quote of a new sbt engine installed for 2300$. plus an optional new oil pump for 400$. he said the crankshaft bearing blew. not sure why, but im thinking about going premix, that way i know it is getting oil all the time, dont have to worry about the oil pump quitting and back in the same situation. is it bad to run premix? if i clean the carbs every season, and carry a couple extra spark plugs on the water with me, what could go wrong?
 
#20 ·
I grew up in the pre-mix era. My 1992 Searay 19ft with 175 Mercury OB was my first self oiler. It had a recall for the flywheel. The old salt mechanic I took it to asked if I wanted the oiler removed and go premix. I asked why. He said "I can remove it for free now, or you can pay me when the oiler fails, failed oilers is where I get most of my engine rebuild jobs. I told him to remove it. After my first Seadoo engine seized, I installed an SBT block, blocked off the oiler and have been premix for past 5 years. I trust premix. Too may generations of premix motors out there and no problems. You will get more smoke and use more oil than the minimum but if the engine seizes you wont have to be concerned with smoke or extra oil. After all, most break in periods recommend double the amount of oil.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I have to disagree.......

I grew up in the pre-mix era. My 1992 Searay 19ft with 175 Mercury OB was my first self oiler. It had a recall for the flywheel. The old salt mechanic I took it to asked if I wanted the oiler removed and go premix. I asked why. He said "I can remove it for free now, or you can pay me when the oiler fails, failed oilers is where I get most of my engine rebuild jobs. I told him to remove it. After my first Seadoo engine seized, I installed an SBT block, blocked off the oiler and have been premix for past 5 years. I trust premix. Too may generations of premix motors out there and no problems. You will get more smoke and use more oil than the minimum but if the engine seizes you wont have to be concerned with smoke or extra oil. After all, most break in periods recommend double the amount of oil.[/QUOTE, ]

I have to disagree with the idea that premixing is better than oil injection, although maybe "oilers" are something different. I also grew up with premix. The invention of oil injection is a blessing. I rode two stroke Skidoo snowmobiles from 1985 to 2003. They all were oil injected not one oil injection system ever failed. So your statement about the old salt mech is lame " I can remove it for free or when it breaks down. Who said it is going to break down"? First of all these injection systems were in sub zero weather with no problems. Can you imagine lugging oill bottles around on a snowmobile across Canada. The only thing you should pre-mix is a weedeater. You fail to mention how many oil injection systems work fine with no failures. I'm sure it is very rare that an oil injection system fails. I repeat I have had outboard motors and snowmobiles in all about twenty oil injection systems over 30 years and not one has had a problem.

Now why you should not premix, like you said lots more nasty, stinky, polluting two stroke smoke. Did you know that one 2 stroke jet ski puts out more pollution than eight 4 strokes running side by side. You are putting oil through the carbs which will gum them up. You will also use more of the high dollar oil.

But if you preffer eight track tapes over mp3 I can understand
 
#22 ·
I had the same problem with my 1995 Polaris SLT 750. What caused the problem was the fuel metering diaphram in the carb which fed that cyl with the bad piston, was brittle & had a hole in it. This caused that cyl to lean out & run hot (cast aluminum fit in that cyl). Honed that cyl, installed new piston & rings in that one cyl - that fixed the problem.
PS: Replace fuel metering diaphrams in all the carbs.
 
#23 ·
thanks for all the replies, its been a while since i got to run it after i got my new engine put in.

how would i replace the fuel metering diaphrams, or know that it is bad?? im still not very familar with waverunners, as this is my (expensive)first one.

Its been sitting in my garage with the new engine in it that ive only got to start and run once with the hose hooked up. since then i havnt run it, but i did look in the hull hull yesterday and noticed some fresh oil pooled up on the bootom. i cannot find where this thing is leaking... all the lines seemed intact and dry, the oil tank is dry, dont know where else it could be coming from. thats another reason why i want to go premix also, so i know its getting the oil and dont have to worry about clamps or hoses. even when i had the origanal engine in it, after everytie i got done running, the water in the hull was greenish brown looking from oil coming from somewhere. the engine failer was from one of the crankshaft bearings, and fried the piston/cylinder. The previous owner had used starting fluid in it all the time, there was a can of starting fluid under the seat. so im guessing that was the main cause of the crankshaft fail.

i also noticed that the choke knob/cable doesnt have a knob to pull out, its just a medal piece(bent) that has a keyring through it. is that normal?

also, how can i tell if it is powrevalve or not? its a 1999 yamaha gp 1200x. the all blue, with white hull.

sorry for all the questions, but im strying to get eduacated and start somewhere with waverunners because they are a blast (for the little time i got to ride it). i appreciate all info and help.
 
#24 ·
First off the 97-99 GP1200 IS NOT a powervalve motor. The 2000+ GP1200r was. The choke should have a knob on it. Lastly, why didn't the shop who replaced your engine go through your carbs as well? That is normal procedure whenever an engine is replaced or overhauled. Go back there, I wouldn't start messing with the carbs on your own if you don't know what you're doing. Keep us updated.
 
#25 ·
hey thanks for the reply. It might sound like a dumb question, but how can you tell its a powervalve? when they did the engine replacement, they asked me if it was or wasnt powervalve and i didnt know. so i wasnt sure if they put one with a powervalve in it or now. i have some mechanical knowledge, but this is my first pwc and i would like to learn everythign about them(fixing). your right about the carbs, the shop should have done them and idk if they did or not its been a while sinve theyve had it. it was in october when they got it back to me. i started it up..it took forever to start. had to grind it for a while. but it started and idled to what seems normal. still there is a little bit of oil pooling in the hull. fresh oil. so it is leakign somwhere. is there a spot on these where oil is mostly likely to leak that gets overlooked? is there a way to test if this oil pump works fully like it should? how do you guys usually choke urs on a cold start? i know with 2 stroke chainsaws and smaller engines you have to choke the crap out of them, i have flooded it once or twice when trying to start it cold...plugs got soaked. but i can never tell when the perfect amount is when cranking it. maybe this is why the owner before me filled the carb with starter fluid....

thanks again for all the help and information. just trying to get more familar with these machines, and waiting the winter out trying to get more edumacated on it.
 
#26 · (Edited)
hey thanks for the reply. It might sound like a dumb question, but how can you tell its a powervalve? when they did the engine replacement, they asked me if it was or wasnt powervalve and i didnt know. so i wasnt sure if they put one with a powervalve in it or now..

The first picture is the non power valve motor found in the 97-99 GP1200. You have that engine. The second picture is the 2000-2002 GP1200r engine which is a powervalve. You can tell if its PV or not by looking at the exhuast side. There are three box like things connected by short rods sitting there. Those are the powervalve housing covers.


i have some mechanical knowledge, but this is my first pwc and i would like to learn everythign about them(fixing). your right about the carbs, the shop should have done them and idk if they did or not its been a while sinve theyve had it. it was in october when they got it back to me. i started it up..it took forever to start. had to grind it for a while. but it started and idled to what seems normal. still there is a little bit of oil pooling in the hull. fresh oil. so it is leakign somwhere. is there a spot on these where oil is mostly likely to leak that gets overlooked? is there a way to test if this oil pump works fully like it should? how do you guys usually choke urs on a cold start? i know with 2 stroke chainsaws and smaller engines you have to choke the crap out of them, i have flooded it once or twice when trying to start it cold...plugs got soaked. but i can never tell when the perfect amount is when cranking it. maybe this is why the owner before me filled the carb with starter fluid....

thanks again for all the help and information. just trying to get more familar with these machines, and waiting the winter out trying to get more edumacated on it.
Honestly, when I had my GP1200 I just sprayed starter fluid down the intake holes and it would fire right up. These engines are known to be very hard to start when cold. Starter fluid is the way to go in my opinion because you are saving your starter and also wear and tear on your engine when your just sitting there cranking it for a minute or two before it starts. Just use one with "upper cylinder lubricant."

Although a carb rebuild might help the cold starting issue.
 

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#27 · (Edited)
hey thanks for that helpfull info, i apprecate it.

Imo, im never going to use starter fluid on 2-stroke engines. starter fluid is not a lubriccant, and no lubricant=engine failure. maybe you have had better luck with it. anyway its kind of hard to see in those pictures the power valve system, but you are right, that is the gp engine i have except a 1200, 3cylinder. I know i dont have a power valve, but could you explain what a powervalve does exactly? i know it has to do something with the exhaust im pretty sure.

im still trying to debate going premix over the injection...its a new reman sbt engine...dont know the exact reason of my last engine failure, just the spark plug was toasted/smahed, and the crankshaft bearing was blown and the piston was stuck...hoping it wasnt the stock oil pump...this leads me to my next question...
i have started the new reman engine once, since i got it home... is there a break in procedure for these sbt engines? i jsut started it for about 5 minutes with the flush kit, no more thatn 40% throttle... while i was winterizing... did i hurt the engine at all? is there some sort of safe proper break in?

also, if anyone has the service manual or knows where i can get the service manual for my 99 gp1200, let me know thatd be great.

thanks guys,dont be suprised to see more questions from me in the future come spring/summer, if you dont mind. i have been reading through this forum taking in all the information i can to become more knowledgable about these, alot of good info and helpfull people here
 
#29 ·
Imo, im never going to use starter fluid on 2-stroke engines. starter fluid is not a lubriccant, and no lubricant=engine failure. maybe you have had better luck with it. anyway its kind of hard to see in those pictures the power valve system, .
Have the shop that replaced your engine rebuild your carbs, that should help the cold starting issue.

im still trying to debate going premix over the injection...its a new reman sbt engine...dont know the exact reason of my last engine failure, just the spark plug was toasted/smahed, and the crankshaft bearing was blown and the piston was stuck...hoping it wasnt the stock oil pump...this leads me to my next question...
i have started the new reman engine once, since i got it home... is there a break in procedure for these sbt engines? i jsut started it for about 5 minutes with the flush kit, no more thatn 40% throttle... while i was winterizing... did i hurt the engine at all? is there some sort of safe proper break in?.
I would vote for sticking with oil inject hands down. Premixing is a pain in the ass, trust me. Plus you are going through oil like crazy. With injection it just sips the oil. Just check your oil lines. Again didn't the shop that replaced your engine check the oil pump to make sure its working properly when they put the SBT motor in?

Go on SBT's website they should have their specific break-in procedure for their engines. I know it involves working through the RPM range in increments. And avoiding full throttle until the end. However many guys who rebuild these engines go with a more agressive break-in. But in your case I'd probabely just go with what SBT recommends since it's their engine.

No you did not do any damage by running it on the hose but the break-in should be in the water with an actual load on the motor.
 
#28 ·
More than likely power valves are similar to RAVE valves on Skidoo and Seadoo motors, where as the valve opens and closes comensurate with engine RPMS the valve opens more as engine rpms increase to give a performance boost. Likewise they close down when rpms drop for back pressure

As far as cold starting is concerned I had to start 2 stroke snowmobile engines in the Adirondacks in the winter. These also had K&N filters with no airbox temps usually 10 degrees, I would remove the spark plugs and pour a shot of gas in each jug replace the plugs and it always started right up, rarely used any starting fluid. :rolleyes:
 
#30 ·
ill have to wait for spring to break it in. as for the oil pump/lines, the shop that put the engine in was a pain. Id call them and they said that the engine was on the way and it should be there by friday(at the time) a week later i called to see how my ski was coming, and they said your engine is on its way....i was like umm you just said last it was going to be there last weeked..the guy stated that the person i talked to at the time mixed some things up. so a month later after bringing my ski to them(beginning of oct.-beginning of nov.) and having it sit outside in the rain/storms/bird sh*t, they finally call and say my ski is done and it was 2300$. they guy asked me if i wanted to put a new oil pump on it and i asked if they could just test it to make sure it works...so when i went to pick up my ski, i asked if the oil pump worked fine. they said they checked the lines and it "seemed" to be working...

this brings me back to my whole worries about the oil pump and having the engine sieze... the guy before me used starter fluid..alot. he had the fuel off,(didnt know it) kept spraing starter fluid down the carbs and it ran off of starer fluid for a couple secs because he didnt realize the fuel was off. as long as the engine is running, it should get oil,if all is well with the pump. right? so i really dont know what caused the crankshaft/piston/cylinder fail...bad oil pump not getting to that cylinder, or starter fluid caused lack of lubricant? it was the back cylinder/crankshaft bearing. there was always oil pooled in the bottom of the hull under and infrotn of the engine...ther still is. even when it just sits there. cant find the source.

even if premix is a pain, its not like ill be doing it everyday. i live in illinois..its summer like 3-4 months of the year. ill take it out on weekends, and i wouldnt mind the premix, as long as my carbs dont get messed up. it would be worth it to me, and some peace of mind...if there is a way to check the oil pump system is working properly...instead of just trust.

also, is there a difference in the 97-98gp1200 models from the 99 gp100 models?

sorry for the extensive post, just wanted to share a little history of the ski for the short time that ive had it so far, and thank you guys for the info.:thumbsup::)
 
#31 ·
You didn't have the engine replaced by a certain powersports dealer in Schaumburg IL did you? Reason I ask is because when I had them drop an SBT engine in my GP1200 I got the same exact treatment. What was supposed to be two weeks turned into a 2+ month affair.

The only differences between the 97/98 and 99 GP1200s is the 99s had a stronger hull as some 97 models and early 98's had hull cracking issues. I had a 98 that was ridden hard and never had a problem though. Don't know how to test the oil pump. I would just start the the engine in the spring and if there is smoke coming out the back the oil pump is obviously working. Plus you have the 2 year no fault SBT warranty so they'll replace your motor if something happens.
 
#36 ·
You didn't have the engine replaced by a certain powersports dealer in Schaumburg IL did you? Reason I ask is because when I had them drop an SBT engine in my GP1200 I got the same exact treatment. What was supposed to be two weeks turned into a 2+ month affair.

The only differences between the 97/98 and 99 GP1200s is the 99s had a stronger hull as some 97 models and early 98's had hull cracking issues. I had a 98 that was ridden hard and never had a problem though. Don't know how to test the oil pump. I would just start the the engine in the spring and if there is smoke coming out the back the oil pump is obviously working. Plus you have the 2 year no fault SBT warranty so they'll replace your motor if something happens.
Remove the oil pump from the engine, remove the oil lines to the carbs, place them in plastic cups or something so you don't make a mess, make sure the oil tank has oil, take a drill, attach the drill to the pump shaft, run the drill (reverse or forward) (don't remember if the engine runs clock or counterclock wise). While pulling the oil pump cable equals amount of oil should come out of each line. As the cable is pulled more (towards WOT), greater amount of oil should come out of the lines.
Mixing different types of oil also create gum and clog the oil lines and carbs, like high bad cholesterol clog arteries. Install all new oil lines, if possible, because the rubber lines get hard with time, don't use plastic ties, use Oetiker clamps. They will never fail with these clamps. Make sure your carbs hi's and low's are set properly by OEM specs. Use 93 octane fuel. I put 390 hrs on my OEM 1200 NPV engine before going pre-mix, even once, aprox @100 hrs, the engine ingested salt water and hydrolocked, I removed the spark plugs, turned the ski upside down, cranked w/o plugs, get most of the water out, installed new plugs and back on the water in less than 2 hrs running 57+MPH.
After less than 20hrs pre-mix (50:1), which is the ratio of the pump at WOT, the PTO crank main bearing failed and cracked the upper case. Some 1200 owners claim to mix 40:1 to be safe, but idling, soak the plugs too much and smokes like a train. Now I just found a set of cases with a crankshaft OEM and will install everything back with new OEM seals, rings and of course, my oil pump is going back to the engine. I also rebuilt all 3 Mikuni carbs. each kit cost $50.00.:thumbsup:
 
#32 ·
Not in Schaumburg, but i had the work done by a shop in decatur IL. about 1 3/4 hrs from me. i live abotu 2 hours from lake shelbyville IL. and yea the service sucked. they lied, and the guy was like, there is one nice weekend left, we will have it back to u by then, then about 2 weekends later i call them again and they say "we just took out the old engine".... i plan on doing most of the work myself from now on, i have a little mechanical knowledge, but i dont know much about jet skis. I printed out a service manual. - i got 1 yr warrenty

How does the sbt engines compare to the factory engine? as in life expectancy/performance/reliabilty? Do/did you like yours? Do you have to do alot of maintenance on them? i didnt have the factory engine for very long, when i first got it, it fired up good, but it always idled rough and took off a little rough..just thought it was the nature of the beast since ive never owned one, but then while out in the middle of the lake it just siezed up on the back cylinder, and spark plug was fried.
 
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